Curse

EwolxNavi · Dec 22, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

I think Abaddon is not 'dead', at least not in the same sense that humans die. I believe he was stripped of his power and position by Kormir's ascension, but I think there's a trend of gods not truly dying.

At any rate, I think Razah is all that remains of Abaddon. He's a creature of the Mists that was conveniently spawned in the Heart of Abaddon shortly after the god's death. His description says something about a template being required for the creation of such a being, and I think that template was the remains of Abaddon. Whatever was left of the dark god was pulled together into a cohesive form by material from the Mists to form the being that is Razah. That's my theory anyway.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 22, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

At any rate, I think Razah is all that remains of Abaddon. He's a creature of the Mists that was conveniently spawned in the Heart of Abaddon shortly after the god's death.

Now now, who said Razah spawned after Abaddon's death? I doubt those spirits bound themselves to Razah, someone had to imprison him. I think it was Abaddon.

Onto my main reason for posting:

I've made a series of new revelations (for myself) these past few weeks which may give a "no" answer to this threads' question. I'll go in order of my discoveries (some of which might have been noted by others that will read this post before I discovered them).

Firstly, when I was rewritting the Abaddon wiki article to make it more complete, I noticed this note:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abaddon

Abaddon's mask, sword and right gauntlet can be seen in the Ruins of Morah mission.

At first, I was just "What? I've never noticed that before" so I went to the Ruins of Morah page where I saw the picture which included a glove, a sword, and a mask.

So I went into the missions to observe these as I know they go through the portal at the top (the fact that things which come up and go through there I knew already), and I took these shots:

Firstly, the glove:

As you can see, it is empty (rather obvious to think), and though I couldn't get a shot (due to speed) the glove - like all three objects, fall into the portal whole (not in pieces like the rock around them).

The sword:

Not much with this either, though it is interesting to note that Abaddon had a sword (and a cool looking one in my opinion).

Finally, his mask:

Interesting to note that it is more like a margonite mask than others.

The thing about this mission which I bring up: We have his equipment, but no body (well some would state that is because it is the Realm of Torment). I disagree! I say Abaddon died in this spot and what we see is a "new body" - the soul reconstructing a body. And here is why:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gate of Anguish;gw.dat

The Gate of Anguish is one of the great locks erected by the five gods to imprison Abaddon. Located on the first layer of the Realm of Torment, the lock was sundered when Varesh performed her unholy ceremony at the Temple of Lyssa in Vabbi, allowing the fallen lord to coalesce part of his godform and gain much greater control over his prison. Past the gate lies a whirpool of darkness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gate of Pain;gw.dat

The Gate of Pain is one of the great locks erected by the five gods to imprison Abaddon. Located on the first layer of the Realm of Torment, the lock was sundered when Varesh completed her convocation with Abaddon, allowing the fallen lord to coalesce enough of his godform to begin extruding parts of his tormented realm into the real world. Past the gate lies a river of tormented souls damned to live in Abaddon's pain forever.

The bold is the important part. I know some of you (Leon and Quintus should he return for a peak) would state that the gw.dat is unreliable as the information may no longer be canon, though this offers an excelent answer to the following question:

Why is it Abaddon is just a head and forearms?

Originally, I thought it was due to game mechanics and limitations (a full boss that big? Outragous, computers would cry), but this dat entry answers it perfectly.

Before continuing, for those who don't know what coalesce means:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

co⋅a⋅lesce
/ˌkoʊəˈlɛs/
–verb (used without object)
1. to grow together or into one body: The two lakes coalesced into one.
2. to unite so as to form one mass, community, etc.: The various groups coalesced into a crowd.
3. to blend or come together: Their ideas coalesced into one theory.
–verb (used with object)
4. to cause to unite in one body or mass.

As most people would know, the Domain of Pain and the Domain of Anguish are very... fleshy. For the later, primarily the Stygian Veil - though there are some body parts in the Ravenheart Gloom (stacks of eyes, some having erroded like eyes) and the Foundry of Failed Creations (I noted a hand at a spot, though don't seem to have a picture of it).

In summary:

I believe that what we fight in Abaddon's Gate is not Abaddon's original body, but instead a "recreated" body made from parts of torment. His original body was destroyed before the Exodus and his soul was what was locked up. In Abaddon's Gate, we didn't just kill Abaddon, but destroyed his very soul, which is why his power runs rampant at that time, but not when Abaddon was killed before.

In other words, the only way for Abaddon to return, if I am right, is through possessing Kormir, as she says his will is broken, this might (but does not mean it is undoubtably) mean his consciousness resides in Kormir in a similar manner to a parasite - Abaddon can no longer exist by himself, and cannot exist without Kormir.

EwolxNavi · Dec 22, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Now now, who said Razah spawned after Abaddon's death? I doubt those spirits bound themselves to Razah, someone had to imprison him. I think it was Abaddon.

You make a good point. I haven't gone over this theory since I shared it awhile back with my guildmates. I had it down so that it fit some of the cannonical stuff that Razah says. Allow me to revise.

Razah was in some form of existance before Abaddon's death. Where or what he was he doesn't say, but he does say that Abaddon bound him to Torment and had put a lot of knowledge into him to 'serve a great purpose'. Personally I think that purpose was to serve some role in Abaddon's manifestation into Tyria, probably as a vessel of some sort. But Razah never says what the purpose was. The fact that Abaddon sealed him in "the very heart of the realm of torment" does imply that he was of some value to Abaddon though.

At any rate, being the former god of knowledge, I think that the knowledge that was being put into Razah was bits of the dark god himself, in preperation for a full manifestation. In the end when Abaddon is destroyed, I like to think that whatever was left over fled to the creature we now know as Razah. The purpose (a concept with which Razah seems to be preoccupied) of us finding him there after Abaddon's (apparant) death gives some closure to the character of Abaddon. I like to think that Razah's choice to follow you and perform heroics at your side is sort of a second chance for the once noble God of Knowledge, a chance to begin to redeem himself.

I of course recognize that the second paragraph is pure conjecture, and that it's far more likely that Razah was just put there to give us our first Ritualist hero. But I find it much more entertaining to think that I've got Abby running around with me spirt spamming bad guys.

Gmr Leon · Dec 22, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

That's actually an intriguing thought EwolxNavi, the part of Razah's being provided with knowledge...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razah

His minions blessed me with knowledge to fulfill a great purpose.

This makes me curious as to whether it's simply the "good" knowledge of Abaddon he was provided, or if it was to be Abaddon's actual plan for what to do with him or something of that nature. It's quite curious indeed.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 23, 2009, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

The fact that Abaddon sealed him in "the very heart of the realm of torment" does imply that he was of some value to Abaddon though.

Or Razah was not yet ready to go elsewhere. He was, after all, a blank template, even when we reached him.

Abaddon could have been intending to use Razah, but didn't get a chance to, or perhaps he was hoping the torment which fell on Abaddon (according to dat descriptions of the Heart of Abaddon area, the waterfalls we see is in fact all of the realm's torment falling upon Abaddon) would end up corrupting Razah and then use Razah to spread torment just like he used his generals and armies.

Perhaps even Razah was just to be a walking Domain of Secrets (that is, Razah's purpose is to record knowledge, and that's all that he was given to do).

There are a number of things that could be the answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

At any rate, being the former god of knowledge, I think that the knowledge that was being put into Razah was bits of the dark god himself, in preperation for a full manifestation.

I know I like to rely on the dat's info, but I must bring this up: Abaddon, according to the dat, just started to regain his body (look at my above post). So why would he reconstruct his own body while also making Razah's body to take over?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

I like to think that Razah's choice to follow you and perform heroics at your side is sort of a second chance for the once noble God of Knowledge, a chance to begin to redeem himself.

This is the only thing I can think of for why Abaddon would reconstruct his own body and possess Razah - a chance of redemption after revenge.

Though really, he would only be redeeming himself for the actions he did after his imprisonment (and why should he? He was unjustly imprisoned), as prior to his imprisonment, all he did was disagree which got into a big, out of control, fight. I think all 6 gods are to blame for that war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EwolxNavi

and that it's far more likely that Razah was just put there to give us our first Ritualist hero.

Originally Razah was intended to not have a single profession. His primary was to be like other heroes' secondary. Meaning on our choice we could make him an Elementalist/Necromancer, or a Warrior/Paragon.

RedDog91 · Dec 23, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It really is unknown. It seems likely that, unlike Dhuum, there isn't going to be a little Abaddon running around causing trouble afterwards, but it's been theorised that there's a little core of Abaddon left in Kormir that may eventually take over...

...or that there was a little core of the god that Abaddon supplanted that first corrupted Abaddon and is now working on Kormir.

Nothing corrupted Abaddon. He actually was a good guy. (note i said was)
He's is the god that introduced magic into the world of Tyria. He did so to make life easier for the creatures that lived in the world. Then the humans began to use magic as a weapon and the whole world almost got destroyed until the human king asked the gods to take magic away. Instead they sepperated the magic into the 4 core casting proffessions and sealed it with the bloodstones to ensure no1 could learn all 4 at once.
Abaddon thought that this was treachery from his siblings and retaliated. They imprissoned him and thats were his hate for the world began.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 23, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

We don't know why Abaddon gave the races of Tyria magic, actually. It might not have been to make life easier - perhaps he knew what would happen.

And not just humans used magic to start wars, it was an inter-racial war of extreme magnitude by all references we have.

draxynnic · Dec 24, 2009, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

In summary:

I believe that what we fight in Abaddon's Gate is not Abaddon's original body, but instead a "recreated" body made from parts of torment. His original body was destroyed before the Exodus and his soul was what was locked up. In Abaddon's Gate, we didn't just kill Abaddon, but destroyed his very soul, which is why his power runs rampant at that time, but not when Abaddon was killed before.

In other words, the only way for Abaddon to return, if I am right, is through possessing Kormir, as she says his will is broken, this might (but does not mean it is undoubtably) mean his consciousness resides in Kormir in a similar manner to a parasite - Abaddon can no longer exist by himself, and cannot exist without Kormir.

This sounds like it's harkening back to my theory that it's the seed itself that's tainted - if Abaddon might posess Kormir through his "broken" will, is it possible that Abaddon had been posessed by his predecessor all along?

Regarding bodies and souls...Interesting speculation, there. One thing I'm wondering, however, is is it really necessary for Abaddon's "soul" to have been destroyed in that battle? What if all we really did was destroy his body again - it's only our characters that presumed from observing Abaddon's freed power that it was going to explode, but we don't know that. It's possible that, if Kormir hadn't absorbed Abaddon, what would have actually happened is that Abaddon would have started making a new body.

However, the thought just struck me that there's one problem with the idea of what we fight being a new body for Abaddon...Why is it chained? Given an opportunity, wouldn't it have been better to build a new body away from the chains? Or is he unable to move without a body, thus unable to try to create a new one away from those chains?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Though really, he would only be redeeming himself for the actions he did after his imprisonment (and why should he? He was unjustly imprisoned), as prior to his imprisonment, all he did was disagree which got into a big, out of control, fight. I think all 6 gods are to blame for that war.

From all I've understood about the lore, Abaddon was the one who threw the first punch, as it were - if he'd been more able to control himself, it could have been resolved peacefully. Sure, it was probably a bit of a bastard move to undo Abaddon's gift without consulting him, but it seems they thought it was an emergency (and they were probably right).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And not just humans used magic to start wars, it was an inter-racial war of extreme magnitude by all references we have.

Indeed. Humans were just the ones who realised that things had to stop now. Of course, that could be because they'd gained the upper hand, had realised everyone else was about to counterattack in unison, and wanted to freeze that as the status quo.

Regarding Razah: I've always thought he was just going to be another demon, albeit probably a particularly strong one used for special purpuses (such as Terick, the Hunger, or the Fortune Teller) rather than general high-end cannon fodder. However, this thought does spark an idea...

...If we take the idea that Abaddon at least has the proverbial "some good in him" at the time of his imprisonment - what if Razah was basically Abaddon's version of compartmentalising his mind? Knowing that Torment is going to drive him insane, he puts the core of his self into a seperate being and keeps that being isolated away from all the various torments. Meanwhile, the rest of his being - containing all his power and knowledge - is left to find a way out of the prison, at which point the two parts can be reintegrated and the true Abaddon can re-emerge. It's possible that the Abaddon we fight was actually soulless, if the soul was incorporated in Razah - what we fought may have purely been his power and knowledge, an automaton directed solely to the task of breaking out of the prison.

This theory would, in fact, explain why Kormir could absorb Abaddon's power when Dhuum, for instance, could only be imprisoned. Abaddon had essentially left a back-door that had intended to be used in order to allow "Abaddon" and "Razah" to merge - but instead, with some preparation from the gods, Kormir was able to step into the place meant for "Razah". Discovering that "Abaddon" had no will, Kormir concludes that his will is broken, when in truth it is simply... elsewhere.

Now, the key thing to note in this theory is that all of Abaddon's knowledge is in Kormir, including the knowledge of what he was, and none in Razah - thus showing why Razah appears to be a "clean slate". If this theory is true, it's possible that Kormir now knows what Razah really is even if she didn't immediately realise (it's a lot of information to take in at once) but has decided to adopt a wait-and-see approach. Alternatively, she may simply have put Abaddon's memories of his time since imprisonment in a Pandora's box that isn't worth the risk of opening.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 24, 2009, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This sounds like it's harkening back to my theory that it's the seed itself that's tainted - if Abaddon might posess Kormir through his "broken" will, is it possible that Abaddon had been posessed by his predecessor all along?

Only the "only way Abaddon can return" part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

One thing I'm wondering, however, is is it really necessary for Abaddon's "soul" to have been destroyed in that battle? What if all we really did was destroy his body again - it's only our characters that presumed from observing Abaddon's freed power that it was going to explode, but we don't know that. It's possible that, if Kormir hadn't absorbed Abaddon, what would have actually happened is that Abaddon would have started making a new body.

Well from what we know, this didn't occur before (unless the death of his body and the destruction that would of occurred created the Crystal Desert). True, we cannot know if that did happen due to the no account, but we cannot say that it did.

So no, it isn't necessary, but I find it highly likely to be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

However, the thought just struck me that there's one problem with the idea of what we fight being a new body for Abaddon...Why is it chained? Given an opportunity, wouldn't it have been better to build a new body away from the chains? Or is he unable to move without a body, thus unable to try to create a new one away from those chains?

This was confusing me as well. The only answer I have is that, due to the nature of the chains (they are ethereal after all), they can chain both body and soul. If this is the case, then the body would have to be made around the soul, not made elsewhere and his soul moved. Unless he was creating a body to possess elsewhere, that is, which doesn't seem to be the case (unless EwolxNavi's theory of Razah being made to house Abaddon is correct).

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Indeed. Humans were just the ones who realised that things had to stop now. Of course, that could be because they'd gained the upper hand, had realised everyone else was about to counterattack in unison, and wanted to freeze that as the status quo.

Or Doric was just a very sympathetic person. We don't know what Doric was willing to bargain for the wars to end. But we do know he was killed during the creation of the bloodstones (according to King's Watch's description) - he spilled one big drop of blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

If we take the idea that Abaddon at least has the proverbial "some good in him" at the time of his imprisonment - what if Razah was basically Abaddon's version of compartmentalising his mind? Knowing that Torment is going to drive him insane, he puts the core of his self into a seperate being and keeps that being isolated away from all the various torments. Meanwhile, the rest of his being - containing all his power and knowledge - is left to find a way out of the prison, at which point the two parts can be reintegrated and the true Abaddon can re-emerge. It's possible that the Abaddon we fight was actually soulless, if the soul was incorporated in Razah - what we fought may have purely been his power and knowledge, an automaton directed solely to the task of breaking out of the prison.

This theory would, in fact, explain why Kormir could absorb Abaddon's power when Dhuum, for instance, could only be imprisoned. Abaddon had essentially left a back-door that had intended to be used in order to allow "Abaddon" and "Razah" to merge - but instead, with some preparation from the gods, Kormir was able to step into the place meant for "Razah". Discovering that "Abaddon" had no will, Kormir concludes that his will is broken, when in truth it is simply... elsewhere.

Now, the key thing to note in this theory is that all of Abaddon's knowledge is in Kormir, including the knowledge of what he was, and none in Razah - thus showing why Razah appears to be a "clean slate". If this theory is true, it's possible that Kormir now knows what Razah really is even if she didn't immediately realise (it's a lot of information to take in at once) but has decided to adopt a wait-and-see approach. Alternatively, she may simply have put Abaddon's memories of his time since imprisonment in a Pandora's box that isn't worth the risk of opening.

This is a very interesting theory, though one I don't have a real commentary on for now.

draxynnic · Dec 24, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Well from what we know, this didn't occur before (unless the death of his body and the destruction that would of occurred created the Crystal Desert). True, we cannot know if that did happen due to the no account, but we cannot say that it did.

Ah. You've actually misunderstood what I was trying to say (but I didn't put it very well, so that's understandable).

Basically, one of the questions that was running through my mind is...do we know for sure that, if Kormir hadn't stepped in, Abaddon's power WOULD have exploded all over everything? For all we know, instead of being seconds away from exploding, Abaddon was actually seconds away from getting a grip on himself and starting to recoalesce.

Although, as you point out, this WOULD explain the Crystal Desert (and, if it is a seperate geographical, the Desolation)...

Konig Des Todes · Dec 24, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I didn't misunderstood your point, I was simply stating that the destruction of the body wouldn't have destroyed everything like believed. Thus, unless something other than the destruction of Abaddon's body occurred, there would be no mass destruction during the end of Nightfall.

Unless, as I stated, said destruction was how the Crystal Desert was formed (which would mean that it wouldn't have "destroyed the Realm of Torment and Tyria").

El Perma Shadow · Feb 08, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I didn't misunderstood your point, I was simply stating that the destruction of the body wouldn't have destroyed everything like believed. Thus, unless something other than the destruction of Abaddon's body occurred, there would be no mass destruction during the end of Nightfall.

Unless, as I stated, said destruction was how the Crystal Desert was formed (which would mean that it wouldn't have "destroyed the Realm of Torment and Tyria").

Wait a minute, I thought they just imprisoned Abbadon during the Margonite war. And that the Crystal Desert was created during the war...

Trader of Secrets · Feb 08, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Cool, I never noticed the sword in Morah before

Konig Des Todes · Feb 09, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Perma Shadow

Wait a minute, I thought they just imprisoned Abbadon during the Margonite war. And that the Crystal Desert was created during the war...

This has been the main conception, but with his weapon and armor being at the spot of Abaddon's fall, which is a nice big crater, and the gw.dat quotes I showed - which are saying he was recreating his body - seems to point otherwise.

El Perma Shadow · Feb 12, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This has been the main conception, but with his weapon and armor being at the spot of Abaddon's fall, which is a nice big crater, and the gw.dat quotes I showed - which are saying he was recreating his body - seems to point otherwise.

They could of destroyed his body and imprisoned his soul in a hell-like area, so he would have to break free and recreate a body using the Margonites and Varesh

Konig Des Todes · Feb 13, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Which is what I was saying. ^^

Sigon · Mar 01, 2010, 08:20 AM // 08:20

I don''t believe he's trully gone.The whole End of Nightfall seemed rather too obvious concidering we're facing off against the god of secrets.

First the five true gods are nowhere to be seen and concidering the fiasco last time He was loose it's odd. It took all five of them to imprison him and they leave a bunch of mortals to deal with the problem when in reality their chances of sucess were slim at best.

Which brings me to my second point that all the heroes and henchment in one big group would still be no match for the combined might of all the daemons and margonites Abaddon has to offer. So this drives me to think we were allowed to reach him.

Also why did the God's avatars choose Kormir of all things as the new god (Gameplay issues aside.) All she did was read the Apocrypha , then get herself captured and tormented by daemons while the player and his heroes were running about trying to prevent Nightfall.

All of this makes me think Abaddon being a god of secrets enginered it all so he can get out of his prison without having to fight his siblings. They might not have noticed Tyria slipping into torment but i'm pretty sure they wouldn't miss our six eyed friend knocking on the gates of heaven for a rematch.

draxynnic · Mar 02, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Well, there are explanations for all of these:

First, the reason given for the absence of the gods seems to be that they were afraid of the destruction that could be caused in a direct conflict, so they may have been holding back hoping that someone else would deal with the problem so they didn't. And Abaddon does seem to be significantly weakened still when we fight him (still half-chained, for one) - it's possible that he has lost most of his power, but that the gods weren't able to finish him off without a suitable replacement candidate.

Second, the PCs and henchmen aren't alone. In fact, the Forgotten do actually still seem to have a surprising amount of control, in that they still control the gates that allow transit from one location to the other (although that could just be a game mechanic, and the enemy clearly has some means of getting around that bypasses the gates). To be honest, I suspect that the fall of Abaddon may have had a lot in common with the destruction of the Great Destroyer - a quick surgical strike to cut off the proverbial head of the snake while an allied force holds the horde at bay.

Come to think on it, Factions does that too. Seems to be a favoured device for ANet's story team.

On the third, there are actually some good reasons for Kormir to be considered suitable. While she rediscovered, and hence helped in freeing Abaddon, she discovered it in the course of seeking knowledge, thus showing her suitability for the mantle of Knowledge. (Plus, given that he'd been sending out agents two hundred years ago, I think Kormir assigned herself more of the blame than she really deserved.) She also has the benefit of having had a prolonged exposure to Torment without going insane, so she's a reasonably safe bet in that respect.

With all that...how do we know that the Five Gods didn't in fact do the engineering in order to find and test a suitable replacement for Abaddon?

That said, I do have my own suspicions, but they actually go back a bit further than Abaddon. We know he replaced another god in the past, and the .dat divers have found suggestions that some of the gnarlier parts of the Realm of Torment certainly predate Abaddon's fall, and possibly even his ascension. Rather than Abaddon coming back, I have a suspicion that there may be something in the Knowledge mantle from primordial times that eventually drives everyone who holds it to insanity.

Kopa The Demon King · Mar 09, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by amitai

abbadon is absolutly dead and he was consumed by kormir... who knows maybe his evil power might affect her

Kormir absorbed his powers, it doesnt mean the uy is dead. Hes weak, but who knows what 250 years can bring? Abbadon is most likely still alive and most likely will be present among the now triad of dark "gods"

Dhuum, Menzies, AND Abbadon I belive will all play a major part in GW2.

((P.S. Im still QQing over the no Avatar of Abbadon :'( It would be so badass)

Konig Des Todes · Mar 11, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Actually, it's much more likely Abaddon (not Abbadon, silly ABBA fans) is dead. Not only does lines hint at that, but the gw.dat hints at it, and even Jeff Grubb has said that they had to let him die.

Oh, and nothing hints at Dhuum and Menzies even playing a role in GW2.